Talk:Flags of micronations

Flags of micronations

Moved here from my user-talk.

I'm fine with the criterium that a flag must be used on a page somewhere, or the overview turns into the mess that we had. However, there is no rule that says only pages on Wikipedia are relevant. Files on Commons are used by other encyclopedic projects, too. Guido den Broeder (talk) 18:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@Guido den Broeder: The reason that the flag should be in use, is to show notability. If a micronation has a well-sourced article, it can be assumed that it is notable enough to warrant representation in the gallery. A page at "Wikisage" cannot support any claim of notability; the web site isn't even notable enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia. The micronation and the Wikisage web site are your personal creations, you have been the only one to edit the target "article" and most of the "sources" are yours. Please also note that no other flags in he gallery are linked to articles outside Wikipedia (and certainly not with bare external links, which Wikipedia try to avoid). TU-nor (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Notability is not required, nor can you assume that Wikipedia is complete and always right. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The content of Wikisage is furthermore not my private creation, in fact I haven't been much active there in ages. This is however entirely irrelevant as Wikisage is equally not a reliable source. The purpose of this Commons page is to provide an overview of flags that are in use. Wikipedia already has a page for flags that it considers notable and we don't need a duplicate. Commons is not Wikipedia, nor does it serve only Wikipedia. It serves Wikisage just as well.

Links to Wikipedia are external links, too, the software merely has a shortcut for those. Again, there is no difference.

You can discuss the Wikisage article about Paraduin on Wikisage, and even edit it, if you so desire. This page on Commons is about flags.

You have now removed the flag of Paraduin three times, which means that you are editwarring. Please undo your latest revert or I will have no choice but to report you. Guido den Broeder (talk) 20:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

@Guido den Broeder: Feel free to report me! Yes, I removed your fantasy flag together with 60+ other fictional flags in this edit ten days ago, and I have reverted your reinsert twice during the last few days. My agenda here is simply to reduce the amount of BS, which in this case includes doing my best in purging Wikipedia/Wikimedia of completely useless information about a fantasy non-existing "nation" (where you are the "head of state", so I should probably address you as "prince Ogidius" or even "Prince Ogidius"). And by the way, notability is actually an important issue both in Commons and in most Wikipedias. Because this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. --TU-nor (talk) 00:30, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

All micronations are fantasy. When they stop being fantasy they become nations. There are lots of fantasy topics on all the projects and there is great multitude of fantasy files on Commons. We consider that valuable, as fantasy is part of human knowledge. Commons isn't an encyclopedia, nor is it aimed to serve only encyclopedias. There are many other projects, like Wikiversity and Wikibooks, that use images kept on Commons, and some non-WMF projects do as well. If you are used to edit Wikipedia that may look strange at first, but you'll get used to it.

Meanwhile, if you wish to make changes but you find yourself in disagreement with another user, build consensus instead of insisting on the change.

If there is to be a rule to limit what goes on this page, which by itself sounds reasonable, the page must mention that rule, so first it needs to be agreed on and formulated. That is not a one-person job. Take your time and be civil in your comments and edit summaries, it costs nothing. Guido den Broeder (talk) 01:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I have edited the gallery description. Let me know if you can live with the current text (or if no reply is posted within a few more days, I will assume that you do). Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not entirely happy with explicitly linking to Category:Flags of micronations, since that is filled up with any amount of rubbish. I have no heavy objections to the other changes you have made, just suggesting some small adjustments. --TU-nor (talk) 11:39, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. The thing is, one person's rubbish is another person's gem mine. Imagine that you are a beginning micronationalist and you want to design your flag. Then you would like to see what flags already exist, both for inspiration and to avoid duplication. This gallery will often be your very first visit to Commons and you may not find the category by yourself. I'm fine with your minor changes though, and glad that you no longer wish to restrict the gallery to micronations with a page on en:Wikipedia. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

You added the key word 'verifiably', which means that any entry will have to point to reliable sources describing 'actual activities and events'. I have never meant that a Wiki-article is an absolute criterium for inclusion, but a well-sourced Wikipedia page will usually be a good indication of such verifiability. Without it, we need to have similarly reliable sources in the article. --TU-nor (talk) 13:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Excellent. So, would you say that this activity by Paraduin has been verified? Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I utterly fail to see that this single mention of "Paraduin Productions" has any value as verification regarding a micronation. In fact, a Google search for the term "Paraduin Productions" AND micronation gives an astonishing 1 – one – result: this page, where both 'Paraduin Productions' and 'micronation' is mentioned (but not together). And the main editor of that page is ...

Sorry, but I am really not seeing why I should waste more time on this. --TU-nor (talk) 16:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

You either make an effort or you let it go. Your choice. Guido den Broeder (talk) 17:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Meanwhile, if not for you then for other users: Paraduin Productions runs the micronation's commercial activities like movies, books and games. The non-profit organization Stichting Paraduin runs the non-commercial activities like Wikisage. To operate in the real world you need legal entities, but they have a low profile. Guido den Broeder (talk) 23:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Guido den Broeder Thanks for removing the textual link to the Category (with which I have said I was not entirely happy) and instead inserting the gallery template. I am not very active at Commons, but as I have learned very recently, that is the intended way of expressing the relationship between galleries and categories. --TU-nor (talk) 01:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)